Wolf Blitzer, CNN (00:02):
Massive oil slick now covering some 600 square miles of the Gulf of Mexico and it could start reaching the United States coast within hours
Reporter (00:12):
Sunday. BP's CEO, apologized,
Tony Hayward (00:16):
I'm sorry, we're sorry for the massive disruption it's caused their lives. And there's no one who wants this thing over more than I do. I'd like my life back.
Reporter (00:27):
Life here may never be the same. The water and all that lives in and around it could be harmed for years.
Doug Downs (00:38):
If you've ever given a media training session, a crisis communication workshop, or even if you've just been a participant in one, you know this clip, Tony Hayward, the former CEO of BP back in 2010 during the Gulf Coast Oil spill disaster. 11 people had been killed and the key interview he gives, he says he wants his life back. This might be one of the most famous, bad apologies, but it's hardly unusual. There are always reasons. Legal liability, financial implications, reputation management, internal bureaucracy, control of the narrative over confidence and pride. And so bad apologies probably outweigh good apologies and probably by a wide margin if only someone were keeping track. Actually there is, sorry. watch.com is a brand that tracks apologies, the good ones and the bad ones today on stories and strategies, why it's so hard for us to get this right. The sorry, state of good apologies.
(02:02):
My name is Doug Downs. A short note off the top. We were recently featured by the podcast Directory Castbox. Those recommendations, they go a long way. Our subscriptions on castbox as a result of the promo went up more than 500%. Have you looked at Castbox? I owe them this. You can download it on the app store, Google Play, and Amazon Alexa. I really liked the interface, smooth and simple and obviously very popular. My guests this week are Marjorie Engel and Susan McCarthy. Marjorie, you're joining us from the Big Apple, New York City. How are things there?
Marjorie Ingall (02:39):
It is cold and wet.
Doug Downs (02:41):
And are you in New York proper like you are, man.
Marjorie Ingall (02:44):
Happy I am I the East Village, looking out onto an old historic cemetery.
Doug Downs (02:50):
It sounds lovely. Even on a rainy winterish day.
Marjorie Ingall (02:54):
Yes, we're living the full Edgar Allen Poe lifestyle over here.
Doug Downs (02:58):
Awesome. Susan, you are in San Francisco. Warmer probably maybe not drier, but warmer.
Susan McCarthy (03:05):
We think it's cold, but I have to admit it's not nearly as cold as the East Coast.
Doug Downs (03:09):
There's some kind of wind. Ooh, everyone. Be careful. Awesome. You are both former journalists who have also been studying and analyzing Apologies, no apology made for that in the news. Pop culture, literature and politics at sorrywatch.com. Fantastic website. Since 2012, your both authors including your new book, getting to, sorry, the Art of the Apology at work and at home, which brought me to you. Marjorie, you're a previously writer for Tablet magazine and contribute articles and reviews of children's and young adult books for the New York Times. Your last book was Mamala Knows Best,
Marjorie Ingall (03:48):
Correct
Doug Downs (03:49):
Susan. You normally write about wildlife and animal behavior, which is perfect for this podcast, including co-authoring when elephants weep the emotional life of animals. You've also written for Discover the Guardian Parade, Smithsonian Institute and Wired. So let's begin at the highest level here. When should one apologize? Simple question, but I think it's worth stating very clearly, and sorry if you've heard that a thousand times before.
Marjorie Ingall (04:23):
I think we both agree that when you can apologize, you should apologize. That apologies are one of the civilizing forces of the world we live in. They make human connections better. They make the kind of world we want to live in that oftentimes we think about apologies with a lot of calculation and a lot of worries about what does this mean that I'm doing this? Should I, should I not? And maybe in some ways we should think less that this is about drawing human, making us better people and making other people behave better accordingly.
Susan McCarthy (05:06):
An apology is a way of saying, I see you, I respect you. I see what your feelings are. And that is something that is so powerful in every realm.
Doug Downs (05:16):
And the way you capture this, it's right in the introduction to your book. It says, apologies are evidence of a society that cares about itself, a society that honors other people's experiences. So the problem seems to be that while apologies are good for society as a whole, they aren't necessarily good for me personally if I'm making the apology and on our next episode necessarily as I'm receiving the apology because it's hard. It's hard to accept an apology. We'll get to that in the next episode. What are some of the most common transgressions that you see when it comes to apologies?
Marjorie Ingall (05:54):
A lot of apologies are really, really and bad. Apologies make things worse. A bad apology is almost invariably worse than no apology at all. And you're absolutely right when you talk about the personal barriers we have, because our brains are designed to make it hard for us because we are self-protective and we don't want to admit that we screwed up. But when you crash through your own defensiveness like the Kool-Aid man crashing through a wall, you will do amazing things. And often people will rise to the occasion of hearing your apology.
Susan McCarthy (06:31):
Making an apology is hard and it isn't fun, but actually it can bring advantages to the person apologizing. It can be good for the person apologizing and basically apologizing is a pretty grownup thing to do instead of going, I didn't mean it and changing the subject, you apologize and there is pleasure in doing the right thing. There is satisfaction in doing the right thing and behaving well.
Doug Downs (07:00):
Okay. And that's all playing to the point where I am genuinely sorry and therefore compelled to make the apology. But it feels like often I don't really feel sorry. I just sort of want the problem to go away. And so I apologize. And whether I say I'm sorry you feel that way, which sucks and we can all agree that's horrid. Or I make what feels like or seems like a genuine apology. But the truth is I just want you to stop nattering at me and pestering me. Don't you feel the same? That that's what society's apologies are like these days.
Marjorie Ingall (07:37):
I wouldn't make the generalization that it's what society's apologies are like these days. I think it's important to note that when a good apology happens, it often goes viral. We tend to focus on bad apologies or a lack of apologies going viral. But I was also thinking about a piece in the Wall Street Journal last year about the president of an olive oil company who was sorry that shipments were delayed. And he wrote this very heartfelt, very casual sounding, very not polished, not corporate sounding apology that he just sounded like a guy saying, oh my God, we screwed this up. People wanted a thing, we didn't give them the thing. I feel terrible and I screwed up. And he got a feature in the Wall Street Journal that would otherwise not be writing about his little olive oil company because his subscribers were so happy with the apology that they got. So I think it's important to remember, we tend to focus on the pitfalls and dangers of apologies, especially when we're talking about corporate apologies. But they can be a huge bonus, a huge advantage to your business if you do it.
Susan McCarthy (08:56):
And I think one of the phenomenon that you see in the idea that people are nagging you and nattering at you and forcing you to give an apology is when you're thinking that you're thinking about yourself and your own good intentions and noble character and you're not thinking, wait, well, what was their experience? What happened to them? Right?
Marjorie Ingall (09:17):
That's different. People who know me know that we don't know you and
Doug Downs (09:22):
All we, yeah, I'm a hero. My story, I'm a
Marjorie Ingall (09:26):
Hero. I'm a great guy, everyone. I don't have a phrase that we've often heard and find very weird, a racial bone in my body. There are all kinds of things that we say about
Doug Downs (09:36):
I don't see race, I don't know what color you are right now.
Marjorie Ingall (09:38):
And all of this is about me and my own defensiveness. And again, as these words are coming out of your face, you are making things worse. So think about how a good apology would land on the people who are upset and think about what their experience is as opposed to what yours is.
Doug Downs (09:56):
So walk me through the steps of a good apology then.
Susan McCarthy (09:59):
Okay, the first step is to apologize with the words, I apologize, or I'm sorry. It's a mistake to go, well, I regret this and I was up all night suffering. Just actually say, I apologize. I'm sorry.
Marjorie Ingall (10:16):
Yeah,
Doug Downs (10:17):
No, I'd like my life back too. Oh,
Marjorie Ingall (10:19):
Right. That was the bp, the CEO of BP after a giant environmental disaster that killed people and destroyed wildlife. I would like my life back. No. So number two, who is
Susan McCarthy (10:32):
Suffering here?
Marjorie Ingall (10:33):
Exactly. So number two is say what you did say, don't say for the unfortunate situation. Don't say for the events of last week, you have to name the thing to show both that you have power over it and that it doesn't have power over you.
Susan McCarthy (10:52):
Next you need to show that you understand the impact of whatever it was. People didn't get their olive oil, people's beaches are covered with oil and their jobs are lost. Whatever the impact is, you need to acknowledge the impact of the thing.
Marjorie Ingall (11:08):
Right? Number four is the dangerous one I think, which is offer an explanation if it's relevant, but do not make excuses. And unfortunately explanations often shade into excuses.
Doug Downs (11:21):
I was tired
Marjorie Ingall (11:23):
Our pro.
Susan McCarthy (11:24):
Right? You were being so annoying. Yeah,
Marjorie Ingall (11:26):
You always,
Susan McCarthy (11:29):
We don't always get it right. Yeah. The next step is to say why it won't happen again. We are putting, we've written some software to make sure that we don't send that spam message out to everybody in the known world. We are trying to have a backup stock of olive oil in our warehouse. Whatever it is. Say why it won't keep
Marjorie Ingall (11:53):
Right. What concrete steps have you taken? Don't just make vague promises. Number six is if you can make reparations, do so a coupon for free shipping. One of our favorite stories was OB tampons pulled the largest size tampon from the market and people were really upset. And this was in the early days of being able to personalize things on YouTube. And they made a personalizable video of this hot man singing a song, apologizing for the missing largest size OB tampon that repeated your name over and over again and then ended with this is when they'll be available in stores. Here is an address that you can write to get them right now, and here is a discount coupon for you.
Doug Downs (12:44):
So good use of AI early on too. Yeah,
Marjorie Ingall (12:47):
Early in the day. And then there's a half step, Susan, you want to take that?
Susan McCarthy (12:51):
Yeah. We added another half step, which is relevant some of the time, which is to say, listen. And if you're talking about the impact of what you did, you may need to listen to understand what the impact is for the other party or parties and people really appreciate being heard. Otherwise you may end up apologizing for the wrong thing.
Doug Downs (13:15):
So that leads into this next question I've got about the timing of an apology because true human communication has a servant return.
Marjorie Ingall (13:22):
I
Doug Downs (13:23):
Love that mechanism to it. It's no good to just serve and you can't just return because there's no one to serve. The timing is impacted because if I apologize right away to fix the narrative or rescue the conversation, the community or person I am apologizing to might need to kick me in the backside first.
Marjorie Ingall (13:46):
Correct.
Doug Downs (13:47):
Before the apology, they might need to get angry because angry is an emotion. There's a place for anger in this world, rightly distributed, but they might need to do that. So the timing is delicate here.
Marjorie Ingall (14:02):
Yeah. I've heard PR professionals use the term golden hour about getting out in front of a problem.
Doug Downs (14:10):
Crisis comms 1 0 1. Absolutely.
Marjorie Ingall (14:12):
And that's not necessarily the way the human brain works. So psychology professors, particularly someone named Cynthia Franz at Oberlin, has looked at the timing of apologies. And sometimes, often when you are doing that rushing thing, it comes off as trying to paper things over. It comes off as self-serving. So she did an experiment in which someone screwed up and either had the opportunity to apologize fast, fast, fast, or to let the other person vent for a while before apologizing. And when the other person has a little opportunity to vent at them, the apology that the person that the harm doer makes is often better accepted. I think part of that is the timing, and part of that is having heard what these specific complaints were, Susan mentioned knowing exactly what it is that people are upset about and you have to listen to hear that. So it's important to make sure that people feel heard before you rush in to do the fixing.
Susan McCarthy (15:19):
It's also you can split up an apology if you need to react to something dreadful right away, but you don't know what happened. You have the option of saying, this isn't right. Our department is horrified at the thought that we might've done a raid on the wrong house and we're going to find out what happened and we will tell you. And so you jump on it and you say, we're sorry this happened. Because oftentimes a mistake that departments and governmental entities and also corporations are liable to make is We don't know what happened. We'll get back to you. We're pretty sure we're good, but we'll let you know. People just get so mad.
Doug Downs (16:05):
It's a good way of touching it and saying, we see it. We need to know more here, but we see it. And that doesn't sound right.
Marjorie Ingall (16:12):
Yeah, that's good. And we hear you is always something that people like hearing. We hear you we're listening, we're going to do the work. We're not done here.
Doug Downs (16:22):
So give me four reasons not to apologize. I picked four right out of your book, but when shouldn't, I apologize.
Susan McCarthy (16:30):
You shouldn't apologize if you're not sorry. You're just going to say something really phony that's going to make people mad.
Marjorie Ingall (16:40):
And again, that's something that often seems counterintuitive to people. Of course you have to apologize, but when you apologize and you do it wrong and you're going to do it wrong, if you're not really sorry, you are going to make it worse. And you're going to end up either having to issue more statements later, which then makes you look like an idiot or you couldn't be risking someone's job.
Susan McCarthy (17:06):
There are other reasons that are sort of more in the personal realm. If somebody doesn't want to hear from you ever again, this might be in a personal relationship and you say, I was really a jerk to you and I want to apologize. And they're like, no, no, never call me again. You don't get to apologize to them. If on the other hand, this is a person who's just wants you to apologize all the time as a power play. And that is a very real thing. Forget that. The other one that we mentioned is apologizing if it's going to hurt the other person. So if you come up to someone and you say, look, obviously not just any person, and you say, I really feel bad that I cheated on you last year. Is that for you or for them? Yeah,
Doug Downs (18:00):
It's a reminder in that case. Okay. Let's pick some of the best worst apologies that you've ever heard. We mentioned the Tony, these are the famous ones, of course, the Tony Hayward one from BP Oil. And we talked about it off the top of the podcast. I'd like My Life back. They had a slew of things they should have apologized for, but they learned their lesson to the count of, I think, billions of dollars in the end. But what are some of the apologies that stand out to you famous wise?
Susan McCarthy (18:33):
I think one of the bad ones that stands out for me, oh my goodness, was the Susan g Koman Race for the Cure apology. First, they apologized badly for a politically motivated decision to withdraw support for Planned Parenthood testing activities. And there was such a furor that they had to walk that back and people really didn't like at that was really unpopular. And because other people were criticizing this breast cancer charity, other people came out of the woodwork and started saying, I haven't wanted to bring this up before, but their pink washing activities, they spend a million dollars a year suing other lesser charities for using the phrase for the cure, that kind of stuff. And also, very notably, they spend 24% of their monies on their revenues on research. Whereas Charity navigators says 60% is a better amount to spend on the actual research to fight the disease.
(19:45):
And so then the great thing about shooting yourself in the foot, you've got another foot. So they put out a survey and they sent it to a bunch of their contributors saying basically test marketing. Apologies if we said, yeah, we made mistakes, but our political opponents jumped on us and they're using it. Would that make you feel better about us if we said we've sufficiently apologized? Would that make you feel better? And of course, just dozens of examples of, how about if we said this? How about if we said that? Which must have seemed like a smart idea at the time, but
Doug Downs (20:24):
Where's the loophole is what they're looking for there? Yeah, exactly. Where's the escape? Yeah. And
Susan McCarthy (20:30):
Did that get leaked? It got leaked. They immediately withdrew it and said that was a totally normal thing to do. But the combination of these two things caused their ratings on charity watch to go down from four to two stars with the amount of trust that people felt in them. They lost millions of dollars. They are still laboring to get their reputation back where it was in 2013.
Doug Downs (21:00):
Marjorie,
Marjorie Ingall (21:02):
Sometimes it's also just the ones that enter the permanent vernacular for being so terrible, are just fun to remember in a world that can be very difficult to live in. Sometimes it's fun to think back to that time that Ariana Grande was caught licking the donuts in a donut case and then issued a statement that it was a commentary on American obesity. And she was really just trying to call attention to our tragic obesity epidemic. So that's always just fun
Doug Downs (21:33):
To think about. And for me, it's the Bill Clinton White House intern. I'll put it that way. I think that woman's been through enough.
Marjorie Ingall (21:42):
Oh, I like
Doug Downs (21:42):
That. You're not. And he was asked, have you apologized to the intern personally? And his response was, I've apologized to everybody. And then blah, key message, key message, key message. And that bothered me. But thank you both of you for your time in this episode, we want to talk about, see the other side of apology making an apology is accepting forgiveness. And as I went through your book, you've got a whole chapter on this. It is profoundly philosophical forgiveness, and I want to cover that in the next episode. I know the two of you are coming back for next week's episode. So thank you again for your time today.
Marjorie Ingall (22:21):
Thank you so much for having us, Doug. Thank you, Doug.
Doug Downs (22:26):
How, why and when to apologize is only half the equation. We'll cover forgiveness in the next episode. If you'd like to send a message to my guests, Marjorie Ingle and Susan McCarthy, we've got their contact information in the show notes. Check out, sorry, watch.com, their website, you won't be Sorry. Stories and Strategies, I'm sorry for that is a co-production of JGR Communications and Stories and Strategies podcast. It would be awesome if you checked out our new website, which is totally hyped up and revamped. Best way to do that is just Google the website stories and strategies. There's also a link in the show notes. Select the podcast tab when you get to the website. Top right. Lastly, do us a favor forward this episode to one friend. Thanks for listening.