Doug Downs (00:10):
I have a confession. I love the Netflix series, the Crown, but I felt they were just too nice to a lot of the main characters. For example, Charles, through the first few seasons, Charles is basically portrayed as more than a little sensitive and sheltered from the real world. As he and Camilla formed their relationship. She's seen as selfish, scheming and kind of poisonous Charles', egotistical, callous and weak. He was so bad. Some of the prince's closest confidants accused Netflix of exploiting the royal family's pain for financial gain. But all this kind of went together with what the British public thought of him generally. Anyway, the series softened on him in season four, but by season five he's cast as sensitive, but caring and kind. The big change, of course, was the fact that Prince became king, but opinion polls today show he has the support of the public majority today on stories and strategies. How did King Charles change the narrative is a crown all it took. My name is Doug down my guest this week. Simon Lewis and David Yelland. Hello to you both in London. Hello.
David Yelland (01:41):
Hi. Hello, Doug
Doug Downs (01:43):
And you're both joining from London. How are things there? Are we enjoying a wintery sunshiny day or is it cloudy and rainy? The typical stereotypical stuff?
David Yelland (01:55):
Well, we've been in the studio so long, we have no idea. It could be midwinter or summer could have arrived. There's a glimmer of blue sky, but it quickly disappeared.
Doug Downs (02:06):
Awesome. Simon, you were the first communications director appointed to the late Queen Elizabeth ii. You're also the former chief executive of the Association for Financial Markets in Europe. You are the director of Communications for Former Labor pm Gordon Brown. You've also held senior communications leadership roles with Vodafone and Centrica. David, you're the former editor of the Sun and a previous deputy editor of the New York Post. You're also the founder of Kitchen Table Partners, a specialist public relations and communications company in London, which you formed after leaving Brunswick Group. And you both have your own podcast when it hits the fan produced by raconteur for BBC Radio four and BBC sounds. It's great to have you both. So let's start with how we got to today. Can you describe the evolution of public relations strategies within the Royal family over the last, let's say few decades? I'm not sure how formal it was going further back and how has King Charles been different?
Simon Lewis (03:11):
Well, that's a big question. That's almost the historical sweep, and maybe I should start by saying David and I first met when I was at the Palace in 1998 and David had just been appointed Editor of the Sun. So I guess our perspective collectively goes back to that period and I guess I'd say a couple of things up front. My appointment was a first, the Palace had traditionally had people in communications populations, roles who'd either come from the civil service or the foreign office. And so post 97, post the death of the Princess of Wells, thinking about the future of the institution, the decision was made to bring in an outside of initially on secondment. So that was the context and it was really trying to think about how to better explain the role and purpose of the monarchy and the royal family to the British people and more widely Canada, the us, the Commonwealth.
(04:03):
And at that time the Sun. David was the biggest setting newspaper in the uk. David had just become editor. So our relationship, I think in a way characterized how the relationship between the press and the palace was then. But also we've both seen how it's changed subsequently and it has changed absolutely dramatically. But at that time, my sense was my principal role coming into that job was to try and get close to senior people like David and others to understand what was in their minds about the palace, the royal family, the monarchy, and try and in a sense develop a new relationship.
David Yelland (04:42):
I think as ever, Simon's being very modest because when he was appointed, it was a big moment for the palace because you asked Doug about the history of over the decades of how the palaces have handled their public relations and their I media relations. His appointment caught my imagination in the first few months of my time as Editor of the Sun because it was clear to me immediately that this was new, that the palace had gone out into the market and they'd found a professional communications director to come in and try and professionalize what they were doing. I mean, just to take helicopter view, the reality is that over the decades and the Crown Television series would illustrate, the British royal family have got more and more famous and more and more interesting to millions, billions of people. It is the biggest PR job in the world if we're honest. It really is, and it's impossible. It's impossible. Things will go wrong of course, and we can see them playing out at the moment, but how is the king doing? You ask about that. I mean, Simon would know more about that than me.
Simon Lewis (05:54):
Yeah, I mean it's unfortunate the king is right now having treatment for cancer. I think Dave and I both feel the openness with which he talked about that as it were through a statement was absolutely the right thing to do. Goodness, how things have changed since I was in the palace. I mean, the openness is really very welcome and the right thing to do. I think most people, I mean leave people who may be Republicans to one side. Most people would say in his first year, the king has done pretty much as well, if not better than expected, he succeeded his mother, the longest reigning monarch of all time. He came in, a lot of people weren't sure what kind of king he was going to be almost from day one. He set a new set of measures. He was more open, he was more transparent.
(06:38):
He had conversations with people in a way that I think a lot of people didn't expect, and it is a shame that he is unwell. Now, I'm sure he will recover. He's having the best treatment. But I think what it's also done, David, is shone a bit of a light on what the Royal family is now because there are fewer members. I mean unfortunately the Princess of Wales has been unwell also. Now we've gone from a situation in the 1990s where a lot of people were saying there were too many members of the royal family to saying, well, hang on, there may not be enough members of the royal family currently to do all the work that needs to be done.
David Yelland (07:10):
Yeah, I think it is important to also say that when Simon and I were first in our roles when Sam was at the palace and I was at the Sun, that was the year after the death of Princess Diana in Paris. So we went in our roles when that happened, and personally that was one of the reasons I got the job. There was existential change throughout the whole of the media industry after that time. Now we have a, I think the biggest threat, the biggest issue is the next generation and also how popular the royal family is in the commonwealth in Canada and Australia and other parts of the world. This is not show business. They are not celebrities. They are celebrities, but more important than that, the king is the head of state, not just of this country. And whether that is sustainable given the rifts between Prince Harry and his brother longer term and what the younger generations think about that is the next challenge.
Doug Downs (08:15):
David, you mentioned we're paying more attention to the royal family more attention than ever before and it's still on that upward curve. It's because we can, there's more technologies that enable us to do it, and the cycle of news has compressed substantially, right? By the time you get to the five o'clock, six o'clock news at night, you're in the analytical cycle already not telling people what happened. So how does the royal family adapt to that and especially the continuing growing emergence of digital communications, how are the royals going to modernize themselves to manage that?
David Yelland (08:51):
I think the way to look at that is to think about the effect on the individuals here. Because in the day, even when I was editing back in the day, not that long ago, the news cycle was very different. And there were hours in the day when they could leave. They could lead a relatively normal life. Now there are every single second there as you say there. So I think one of the biggest threats actually to the royal family longer term is whether they want to do it and whether they want to inflict it on their children. And I don't think it'll happen now, but I think at some point that you have to say that there are two huge things around the royal family. The most important, and again, Simon knows far more than I do about this, is the sense of duty. You can see it in the late Queen, you can see it in the king. They don't put themselves first. There is a duty to the country and to the commonwealth, and that is the primary motivation. That is what they are there for. It's not about themselves, it's about other people.
(10:03):
But at some point as a parent, I wonder whether future generations might ask whether they want to inflict this level, as you say, global digital media. And Lord knows what's going to happen next 10, 20 years in terms of media AI and so on, whether you want to inflict that on your children.
Doug Downs (10:23):
And we've seen Harry and Meghan break away seemingly as part of that and then crave to have it back. I'm not sure how many times they can break their silence.
David Yelland (10:34):
I'm not sure they crave to have it back. I think the one thing I would say about Harry and Meghan and not, I dunno them as individuals, is you can probably disregard the majority of what you read about what they think.
Doug Downs (10:48):
Fair enough.
David Yelland (10:49):
Because it's written by people that have an agenda against them because Prince Harry is in litigation with more than 60% of the UK media at the moment. He's actually, so
Simon Lewis (11:02):
I also think, and a wise person, the palace said this to me when I arrived, is that one of the reasons the royal family fascinates us all is it's a bit like holding a mirror up to our own families. Not that our own families are like the royal family, but the dramas, the events, the periods in a family's life, we all broadly go through the same sort of experience. I think that's what fascinates people, that they kind of look into a family. I'm not saying they recognize everything but the dynamic in a family, how things happen. I think that's because it's kind of writ large. And the other thing I just wanted to add to what David said, I mean the stat that always I think about is when he and I first knew each other, there were a hundred million users of the internet and newspapers were king.
(11:45):
The last time I looked, it was four or 5 billion regular users of the internet. I think the Royal family monarchy have been brilliant and their advisors in actually utilizing that interest through social media, you just have to go onto any of the websites, the royal website, the individual members, and their lives come to life. And that was impossible before and you just had to wait on a wet day to see a member of the Royal Family pass by. And I think that it's been a very shrewd, clever strategy, I think to make best use of social media.
Doug Downs (12:15):
Well, that leads me to this question, particularly for you Simon, but David, I'd love your thoughts from your experience, PR director within the Royal family, what are some of the behind the scenes tactics and strategies that might be used to influence the public narrative?
Simon Lewis (12:34):
Well, I think it's pretty straightforward. I mean, what is the monarchy in the royal family about? It's about, as David said, public duty, but it's kind of bringing that to life. I mean, talking about public duty is fine, but I think it's always about what the royal family does, what they do and how they do it. And I think the late Queen was incredible the way she got out there. I mean advised obviously around the kind of events she should do and how she should be seened. I mean, that's so central to the role of the monarchy. So there were no real tricks. The trade, it's just relying on the hard work of the royal family, and I think probably a little bit of making sure that what the royal family does and how they do it is in tune with what's happening right now.
(13:14):
I think the other thing that people very rarely focus on is how important the relationship is between Bucky and Palace. And number 10, it's not really a trick of the trade, but you've got to have absolutely rock solid relationships between the head of state and the head of government, and that makes the whole world go around. I think the third area is making sure, to David's point, to the extent you can, you protect the privacy of particularly younger members of the royal family. And David and I remember well, the negotiations around Harry and William when they went to school, making sure they had some kind of private life. And I've always believed, and the same applies to King right now, that everyone is entitled to a degree of privacy, personal privacy. So I think those elements, and I think also, if I may say so, leave me out of it being well advised, having people who can come in and give proper top quality advice. Because if you're a member of the royal family, it can be a pretty lonely place sometimes.
Doug Downs (14:08):
David, how is the relationship between the royal family and the media evolved in recent years?
David Yelland (14:15):
Well, it evolves the whole time almost on a week to week basis. But I think the way that I would answer that question is that basically it's much better now than it was. When I say was, I mean, I'm talking decades ago. There was a time when the communications advisors and the PR sets, if you want of a better word, better phrase in the palace was so far behind the times it was totally unable to cope. That's why Simon's appointment was so pivotal. That was the beginning of professionalizing the function, I think at the moment, because really you can only answer that question by talking about where the contemporary times really where we are now. I mean at the moment, the relationship between the palaces and the British press is extremely good between the King and Prince William and the major players, if you like, in the royal family, it is as good as it's been for a long time.
(15:20):
And there is a reason for that. One of them is that the people running communications in the palace are extremely good. The other though is the counter narrative. We all know how novels work and movies is there always has to be a baddy, and the baddy is Prince Harry. And because Prince Harry is defined as the bad person, the palace is defined as the good people. And actually, if it wasn't for Harry, the British press would be much more aggressive on the royal family. They actually benefit from the fact that if I pick up the Daily Mail any day, almost any day, there will be a very big negative story about Prince Harry and Meghan and a very big positive story about the royal family. Now, that's not healthy because it's not sustainable and they know exactly what they're doing. By the way, I mean, I think they make it almost impossible for the two sides to get together.
(16:16):
And there have been things that have been said without going into detail. We all know what they are, which make it very difficult. They're very, very difficult indeed for there to be a real response. So to answer your question, the relationship between the king and the king's people and the British press has never been better. However, we live, I don't need to tell you, you are in Canada. We live in a very big world, and sometimes I think here in London we can just look at this and think that's great. But actually out in the world, I'm not sure that things are quite as healthy.
Simon Lewis (16:47):
I'm smiling because the very first ever press surgery back in Palace, I think in the 1950s was a former military man called Colville, can't remember his title, and he was known as No Comment Colville. Literally that's how far things have traveled that actually, as David said, there's a completely different understanding.
Doug Downs (17:08):
Last question for you, and this is something we could fill hours of conversation with, there are some who feel the monarchy has run its course. David, you were kind of alluding to that, but more that the family might make its own decisions there. Research for the National Centre for Social Research in 2023 shows only 29% of respondents in the UK consider the monarchy very important. Another 25% say the monarchy is not all that important. How do you lead through that?
Simon Lewis (17:43):
Well, I was the first ever official at the Palace Commission polling about the back in the late nineties, and the figures were not very different in that the vast majority of people in the UK if asked a straight question, would you support the monarchy or not? Would say yes, I think, and I don't believe that's changed. I think what has changed is that the views of young people, I think young people, the demographic, the let's say 18 to 30 year olds, I think the concern would be that there used to be the assumption that people as they got older, became more believe more in institutions. I think the challenge for the monarchy and of institutions everywhere is the current generation of young people. That sounds a bit patronizing, mean the 18, not yours, gen Z, gen Z, are they going to change their views? They may have a set of views about institutions that will never change. Then I think that potentially becomes existential because you've either got to find a way of connecting with the Gen Z generation or you've got to find a way of protecting, in a way your long-term support in another way. And I think that would be the single to me, most significant challenge to the institution.
David Yelland (18:51):
I think that this is why Meghan is such a loss to the royal family because as Britain is such a multicultural country now and will become much more so in the next 10, 20 years, the royal family are going to start to look out of touch with their own country, certainly with the Commonwealth, but with their own country, which is unfair in a way because they absolutely understand these issues mean, but that's the way it goes. The only other thing to say is, do we need a monarchy in this country? While our political elite have not really shown any major credibility of any party in the last 2030, I think the British view basically in essence is we'd rather have the royal family. And I think probably that will hold for a long, long time
Doug Downs (19:41):
As if it's the thing we love to grumble about, but we want to keep it and complain about it.
David Yelland (19:46):
Indeed, and
Simon Lewis (19:47):
Also I think the more change there is in any society, the more important that there's something that's as constant as the Northern star. I mean, the fact is that during very difficult times in this country, the monarchy has played an incredibly important role, and there are other ways of running a system, but actually an apolitical monarchy actually can serve a very important role. And there's a general election probably this year that may or may not be change of government. It's a moments like that that people want to just check that the other parts of the society and constitution are all kind of continuing in the same form, and I've always believed that that's a very important role of the monarchy.
David Yelland (20:23):
I think it's also true that if we had a bad monarch, things might be different, but the reality is that this country is very strange. We were just talking about it actually on when it hits the fan people that if you run a big company or you get to the top in any field, you get invited to the palace and you get bought into the establishment. And although Britain has this reputation, has been terribly snobby and all this, actually, the reality is the closer you get to the royal family and the way things work, the more you realize that they are approachable and they will invite you in and they are listening and the system, that relationship between the royal family and the country does work really, really well. Whereas there are other parts of our political, the body politic in this country that are not working at all.
Doug Downs (21:11):
Excellent. I really enjoyed this. I appreciate your time, both of you today. Thank you.
David Yelland (21:15):
Pleasure. Pleasure.
Doug Downs (21:17):
If you'd like to send a message to my guests, Simon Lewis and David Yelland, we've got their contact information in the show notes. You can listen to their wonderful podcast when it hits the fan produced for BBC Radio four and BBC sounds on any podcast directory. Stories and strategies is a co-production of JGR Communications and Stories and Strategies podcast. If you like this episode, please leave us a rating and possibly a review. Those mean the world to us. Lastly, do us a favor forward this episode to one friend. Thanks for listening.