How to Compete for Attention in a Distracted World

PR teams are being asked to win attention in a world that barely gives it. The problem is not reach. The problem is what happens after the click, after the view, after the impression. If your audience does not stay, nothing sticks. Not the message, not the trust, not the reputation you are trying to build.

In this episode, we unpack why depth beats scale and why time spent is one of the most overlooked drivers of influence. You will hear a fresh way to think about loyalty, attention, and what it means to create content that people actually choose to come back to, even when the feed is endless.

Listen For

3:42 How do you separate scale from depth in brand storytelling?
6:57 What makes podcast audiences stay or leave?
10:20 How can stories compete for time in today’s distracted world?
12:42 Why does audio create such a deep connection with listeners?
15:28 Who really listens to podcasts today? And how is that changing?

20:03 Answer to Last Episode’s Question from Guest Jenny Manchester

Guest: Roger Nairn, Jar Podcast Solutions

Website | Jar LinkedIn | Roger LinkedIn | YouTube

Doug Downs

Substack | Website | LinkedIn

Farzana Baduel

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Chapters

• 3:42 How do you separate scale from depth in brand storytelling?
• 6:57 What makes podcast audiences stay or leave?
• 10:20 How can stories compete for time in today’s distracted world?
• 12:42 Why does audio create such a deep connection with listeners?
• 15:28 Who really listens to podcasts today? And how is that changing?
• 20:03 Answer to Last Episode’s Question from Guest Jenny Manchester

Transcript

Emily Page (00:01):
Before stories were measured by views or reach, they were measured by how long people stayed. Passed from voice to voice and fire to fire, the stories that lasted were the ones that held attention, not the ones that travelled fastest.

Doug Downs (00:22):
Long before there were screens, before charts and counts and numbers climbing in real time, people gathered close. Not close to be seen, but close to listen. A fire cracked, shadows moved, a voice carried. Stories did not need to travel far. They only needed to stay. Those stories moved slowly from parent to child, from neighbour to neighbour, from village to village. They changed a little each time, but the heart stayed the same. Warnings wrapped in wonder, lessons hidden inside wolves and woods and dark paths home. These stories lasted because people stayed with them night after night, generation after generation. And by the time Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm began writing them down, the stories were already told. Very old. They did not invent them. They collected them. What had lived by word of mouth now lived on paper. That act did not make the stories deeper. The depth was already there.

(01:24):
 It simply allowed them to travel farther without losing their weight. The power of those tales was never their reach. It was their grip. Children listened until the end. Parents remembered them long after. These were not stories meant to be skimmed or sampled. You followed them into the forest. You stayed until the danger passed. You waited for the lesson to reveal itself. When the stories finally spread across borders and languages, it was not because they were loud, it was because they were familiar. They felt personal, like someone speaking just to you, one voice, one fire, one moment where time slowed enough for meaning to take hold. Once upon a time, a story stayed alive because people stayed with it. Today, on stories and strategies, we follow the breadcrumbs into the woods to ask why some stories still hold us there long after the fire burns low.

(02:38):
 My name is Doug Downs.

Farzana Baduel (02:39):
And my name is Farzana Baduel and our guest this week is none other than Roger Nairn, who is joining us today from Vancouver, Canada. Hi, Roger.

Roger Nairn (02:49):
Hey, how are you both doing? Good.

Farzana Baduel (02:51):
How are things in Vancouver?

Roger Nairn (02:53):
Beautiful. I mean, I say beautiful in quotation marks because it's always raining, but it feels good. It feels good. People are in a good mood, but it's pouring rain right now.

Farzana Baduel (03:07):
Oh, dear. Well, Roger Nairn, you are the co-founder of Jar Podcast Solutions, one of the world's most successful podcast production companies helping organizations build loyal audiences through story-led audio. Now, you work with brands to create shows that earn attention through depth, trust, and consistent value. Not noise. May I add? Now, you're all about practical thinking on retention and content strategy and why audio remains one of the most intimate ways to build long-term connection.

Doug Downs (03:42):
Yeah. So Roger, we live in this world that rewards size, speed, big numbers, right? But when you think about real influence or real connection, how do you separate scale from depth? Yeah,

Roger Nairn (03:57):
No, totally. When I think about scale and the way our team thinks about it, scale for us is distribution, whereas depth is all about belief. And when I think about the PR world, PR lives and dies on belief and it's what survives the next headline. So in practice, I separate these by asking three really blunt questions to our clients. The first one being, did the right people hear the podcast or see the podcast? Did they repeat it accurately and do they share it with their friends? And really did it change what they do next and how they see the brand? So if the answer is we got impressions, people saw it, that's kind of like just a weather report really. It's not really proof of understanding who this brand is and really going in deep. So at Jar, we've seen modest download numbers, but actually those modest download numbers create depth because the audience was specific.

(05:00):
 We knew exactly who they were and the content did an actual job. So for example, one of our clients was Staffbase. Staffbase is an online app for internal communicators. And we made a podcast for them called Infernal Communication. The win was not really going wide with that show. It was going incredibly deep and into that niche world where trust is going to be the currency. So another example is one of our clients is Genome BC. We create a podcast for them, an award-winning podcast called Nice Genes. So the goal with them is to educate and create momentum over time with a specific younger audience. So the depth shows up in that younger audience as well as parents, teachers, and sort of what we call the science curious listener. They're going to come back and they're going to share episodes in context. And this isn't really sort of blasting them with a link and praying that they actually listen.

Farzana Baduel (06:04):
Roger, one of my favourite songs of all time is by The Clash, Should I Stay or Should I Go? And I wanted to know, if you look at podcast audience, when they're thinking, shall I stay and tune in or should I drop out? I mean, they're quite a hard work podcast audience because actually it's not like they're scattergun and they listen to lots of podcasts. They tend to be relatively monogamous in terms of really tuning into a few podcasts and also quite difficult because actually you want them to tune in week after week or month or however regular podcasts are. Tell us about the typical mindset of the podcast audience. Are they easy to attract? Are they difficult to retain? What kind of intelligence can you give us? Because you have been running your podcast company for over 10 years and prior to that, you also were a co-host for a podcast.

(06:57):
 So what insight have you scraped over those years about?

Roger Nairn (07:02):
Yeah. Well, from a brand perspective, the second the podcast starts sounding or looking like a press release, you're going to lose them. But when you take the time to understand who they are and really respect who they are and treat the podcast as something that's going to be worthy of their time, then they're going to give you that time. So you earn that time by being specific, having a strong point of view, getting to the point before the listener's brain starts thinking about something else or flicking to Netflix, because that's the one thing about podcasts these days is we have to compete against every type of medium out there, whether it's reading a book or watching Netflix or playing video games.

(07:45):
 And I mean, as a brand, you have an even larger hill to climb, but if you do that climb properly, you can have a lot of success. So we want to be consistent in the format and be honest in our delivery of our material. So the audience learns over time that this is a real safe bet. These people understand me, they respect me, and I have a strong relationship with the content. It's not going to be a random listen every single time. So in PR terms, going back to PR, that's going to mean fewer key messages and more real answers, real honesty. We want to include some uncomfortable moments, some uncomfortable questions that can still survive the episode. We don't want too many of the lawyers getting involved in the production. We obviously want to have guardrails, but we want the content to be as authentic as possible.

Farzana Baduel (08:43):
So there you go, Doug. Roger wants some difficult questions, so

Doug Downs (08:46):
Over to you. All right. Okay. Let me load up again.

Farzana Baduel (08:49):
Let him have it.

Doug Downs (08:50):
Roger, I like what you said off the top that really the message or the brand narrative is what people are saying about your content. And I was thinking about when I work with TED Talkers, I have the luxury of presentation coaching with TED Talkers. One of the things I try to get across to them is

Roger Nairn (09:07):
I'm a TEDx alum myself. In

Doug Downs (09:09):
Vancouver? Oh, awesome. In

Roger Nairn (09:10):
Vancouver, I was on the board of TEDx Vancouver, which at the time was the largest TEDx in the world outside of, I think, Brazil.

Doug Downs (09:19):
Yeah. Yeah. It's actually, it's dynamite and I know

Roger Nairn (09:22):
It's amazing.

Doug Downs (09:23):
... folks with the Victoria TEDx, not necessarily Vancouver. One of the things I get across is you have to establish a narrative for your talk, real simple, a simple narrative. And it's not what you are getting across. It's what people are saying, "Hey, that guy, what did that guy say? Or what did that woman say when she was speaking?" And that's what you're getting across. And then I drill further into, well, how do I get people to do that in my content, whether it's social media, whether it's my pop-up banner or podcasts in our YouTube videos in our world, but whatever content we're creating. And part of that is time spent. Aside from YouTube and podcasts, what are some of the ways to increase time spent? I don't know how you do that with social media other than getting people to chitter chat and engage with your stuff.

(10:20):
 It's hard.

Roger Nairn (10:21):
Well, at the end of the day, podcasting is storytelling and storytelling, every good story has stakes, right? So in a podcast episode, from an editing standpoint, you want to get to the stakes fast. You want the people that you have on your show to sound like real, authentic people. And then you want them to sort of deliver that payoff that feels worth the time. And you're only going to get that with great talkers. And so putting it in the context of a TED Talk, you're going to have a similar arc, setting up stakes, being their authentic self, and then having that strong delivery of the payoff in the end, which is whatever the message is that you want to leave with the listeners. So a lot of branded content fails at this because it starts with context, mission, background, which is sort of a polite way of saying, "Please wait while we warm up this conversation sort of thing." So the shows that hold attention, pick one clear idea, build tension around it, and then let the listener feel the people behind the message or behind the story.

(11:31):
 So in PR, one of the hidden superpowers about PR is clarity because clarity beats clever when attention is quite scarce.

Farzana Baduel (11:50):
Roger, one of the big differences between marketing and PR is PR is really earning trust and then that creates an environment conducive to selling. And from my understanding about the research around podcasts, it's a very unique medium where people actually build trust. And it's something to do with the audio inputs and how people actually start really feeling as if the podcast hosts are someone close to them, like a close friend or family. You've obviously been a podcaster in the past and now you produce podcasts for some of the world's leading brands. What have you learned in terms of what's unique about the way a podcast really resonates with the audience? That's different than say other sort of channels.

Roger Nairn (12:42):
Well, one of the first things is the actual medium itself. Audio typically is spoken through headphones or earbuds. So right now, we're literally almost whispering in each other's ears. You have that intimate connection of just the voice. And if you have a great host who has a great voice and you start to really build a connection just on a physical level with that voice. But then there's also the intimate nature of podcasting typically being done when you're alone. You're either curled up on a chair listening to a podcast or you're walking the dog or you're washing the dishes or you're mowing the grass. Some people listen in the car with their family or their loved one as they're on a road trip, but for the most part, it's a solo relationship. When it comes to the actual show itself and the host itself, when you have a host who's always there and present and shows up for the listener on a regular basis and really puts themselves in the shoes of the listener, we always like to say that the host is like the Sherpa for the podcast, sort of come with me, we're going to go on an adventure or come with me.

(13:51):
 We're going to learn about ancient Egypt. If you explain what happens to the listener in plain language and you give the audience a sense that I'm here for you, then they're going to consistently show up. It's just like having a really great friend who's always there for you and consistently shows up and doesn't talk to you like an idiot and talks to you as if they truly care and want to understand who you are and how you can support them and how you can teach them. So at Jar, for example, we really try hard to get the brands we work with to treat their shows like an owned channel that they can be really proud of and use it as that sort of central trust building medium. So when we have done that successfully, it's always been by choosing a host who really gets their audience and has a lot of respect for them, treats them like they're part of a community and is really sort of in their corner.

(15:00):
 It's less broadcast and it's more relationship building.

Farzana Baduel (15:03):
And Roger, just in terms of the audience, in terms of people who tune into podcasts, is it for everyone or is it a certain psychographic, i.e. growth orientated? Is it a certain demographic? Is it more male than female, more sort of like middle-aged? I mean, tell me what the actual audience demographic kind of is skewing towards. Give me some stereotypes.

Roger Nairn (15:28):
Yeah. No, no, it's definitely changed over time. The thing I'll say now is that it's pretty much fifty fifty male, female.

(15:37):
 We are seeing a lot more of that older audience now listening to podcasts, whereas before it was typically a younger audience we were seeing ... But what we are starting to notice is a lot of these niche audiences growing. And I'll give you a perfect example. We've all heard of the bro culture in Canada, the United States when it comes to anything, maybe sort of health and wellness, but it's also blending the lines between politics as well. We see a huge sort of sports loving audience, but big business audience. We'll see different audiences that are more attuned to listening via audio than they are via video. And actually an interesting point there is as we're talking to PR professionals, actually business professionals as a whole overindex when it comes to audio listening over video, mostly because of the portable nature of it and they are so mobile, but they'll also be on the treadmill or they'll be running through an airport.

(16:40):
 They love to listen to learn and really plus up their careers, but they also love true crime. They love to escape and have a little bit of strategy involved in that escape. So we are seeing a big wide swath of demographics now listening to podcasts. It is starting to very much align with that sort of general entertainment and sort of general media audience that consumes film and television and digital video and things like that.

Doug Downs (17:15):
Yeah. I know I've seen stats saying there might be slightly more men than women, which is

Roger Nairn (17:20):
Almost.

Doug Downs (17:21):
It's like 53, 47 or something percent. Exactly. But there's a whole history to that. But women tend to listen for longer, which that doesn't surprise me. Okay. So men are getting distracted. I'm sure the women too. That leads me to an overarching question though. Since we started recording this, Roger, I've had three WhatsApp notifications pop up on my screen. I just heard a couple of dings for new emails that I've got. I can't see them. They're in the background. We live in a distracted world. The person listening to this right now, they've pushed pause and pushed play a couple of times, at least, because baby was crying or they got in the vehicle and started driving to something, right? So they've paused it and restarted a few times. How do you compete in a distracted world, not just with podcasts, I mean with social media, with all of our content.

Roger Nairn (18:11):
Yeah. So the one thing about podcasts is they very much start to bake themselves into the listener's everyday routine. And a big piece of that is sort of the functional nature of it. Let's take, for example, one of our podcasts that we do is for Amazon. It's called This Is Small Business. And it's meant as a truly high value show for small business owners. Now, if I'm a small business owner and I get out of bed and I know that the latest episode of This Is Small Business is now available, I'm going to listen. And as long as there's a lot of value being delivered and I'm really going to get a lot of takeaways, yes, I might get distracted. I might need to take care of the baby or it's time to jump in the shower or it's time to go to that meeting, but I am going to finish it because I know that I'm going to get that great payoff in the end.

(19:07):
 So if you can treat the podcast as something that is truly going to consistently deliver and is really something that is a must in the audience's sort of daily media consumption, then we start to see a lot of return listeners. We start to see what we call a sticky listener and we see a lot more value from a brand perspective in the content.

Doug Downs (19:38):
Roger, really appreciate your time today. Are you in London in May at the big podcast show? Are you going to be there?

Roger Nairn (19:44):
I haven't got plans yet. We might though this year. Okay.

Doug Downs (19:49):
Yeah, it'd be great to ... Farzana and I will both be there. So it'd be great to have a spot to talk with you. Yeah. Thanks, Roger. Absolutely. Now,

Farzana Baduel (19:58):
Roger, in our last episode, our guest, Jenny Manchester, left a question for you.

Jenny Manchester (20:03):
I would like to leave the question because I'm thinking it's new year, new beginnings. It's very cold here and the hours are dark and it's tough, isn't it? And I would like to leave the question on what brings you joy in PR?

Roger Nairn (20:19):
In comms and PR. I love the moment when PR comms becomes really clear, just a lightbulb switches on. Instead of there being just a lot of theatre behind the message, I just love it when it's so crystal clear to understand what is trying to be said.

Doug Downs (20:41):
I like those small moments where somebody gets what I mean.

Roger Nairn (20:44):
Yeah.

Doug Downs (20:45):
I had someone post ... I was commenting on somebody else's post on LinkedIn and then someone responded to my comment and in my groggy, I've been fighting a cold brain, I thought they were telling me off and I didn't respond and I

Roger Nairn (21:00):
Went ... It's just the natural, something your days online.

Doug Downs (21:04):
I went to sleep. I woke up, I looked at it the next day, and no, the person was like totally ... They were embellishing my point. I

Roger Nairn (21:11):
Sent

Doug Downs (21:11):
them a little ... We connected in the end on LinkedIn. I said, "Sorry, you kind of PO'd me last night, but you're actually right on page." Yeah. You got me.

Roger Nairn (21:20):
Roger,

Doug Downs (21:20):
Great spending time with you. It's great to meet you. Thank you. Great to

Roger Nairn (21:23):
meet you both too.

Doug Downs (21:24):
Thanks so much. Here are the top three things we got today from Roger Nairn. Number one, belief beats reach. Scale gets seen. Depth gets trusted. Number two, earn the stay. The moment it sounds like a press release, they're gone. And number three, audio builds bonds. A consistent host turns listeners into a community.

Farzana Baduel (21:50):
I love that. I love that. So podcast is just classic PR. It's really earning the trust, earning the attention.

Doug Downs (21:57):
Agreed. And I think building them is just classic marketing. There's nothing outside the box. Yeah,

Farzana Baduel (22:03):
No, no. It's classic PR. Anyway, so if you'd like to send a message to our guest, Roger Nairn, we've got his contact information in the show notes, Stories and Strategies as ever is a co-production of Curzon Public Relations and Stories and Strategies Podcasts. If you liked this episode, please do leave a rating and possibly a review and a big thank you to our producers, Emily Page and David Olajide. Lastly, do us a favour, forward this episode to one friend, please. And thank you so much for listening.