Why Public Relations Still Has a Leadership Problem

Communications is often described as a female-led profession, but that label can hide a harder truth. Women may make up much of the industry, yet the balance often shifts when it comes to senior leadership, influence, and decision-making.

So, what’s still standing in the way, and why has progress been slower than it should be? 

Natasha Plowman argues gender equity cannot remain a women-only conversation, yet many men still hold back because they are afraid of saying the wrong thing, unsure how to contribute, or feel the issue is not theirs to address. 

In this episode, why silence protects the status quo. And change usually starts when more than the excluded group speaks up.

Listen For

2:33 Why Does a Female-Powered Industry Still Struggle to Put Women in Leadership?
5:12 Why Are Men Reluctant to Join Gender Equity Conversations?
7:24 What Does Real Allyship from Men in the Workplace Look Like?
11:45 Is the Backlash Against DEI Actually About Performative Policies?
14:21 Would Simply Adding More Women to Leadership Solve the Problem?

Guest: Natasha Plowman

Spinning Red Website | Antiquoted Website | Email Break the Silence | Natasha LinkedIn

Doug

Substack | Website | LinkedIn

Farzana

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Transcript

Lady Emily (00:00):

Sometimes the people outside the room cannot change the room by themselves. Real change often begins when someone inside decides to speak up, even when it feels uncomfortable. That is the lesson behind this opening story.

Doug Downs (00:17):

In the film, 12 Angry Men, Henry Fonda plays a juror in a murder trial. 11 other men are ready to vote guilty and go home. The case seems open and shut, but Fonza's character slows the room down and asks them to look again. He doesn't do it with a big performance. He simply refuses to let silence do the deciding. He doesn't just fit the room, and that's what makes the story endure. Real change often begins when one person inside the room is willing to make things a little bit uncomfortable and question the easy consensus. That feels close to the story in public relations too. Women power two thirds of the profession, yet leadership is the opposite of that. Not enough women speak up about it true, but too many men stay quiet as well because they're afraid of saying the wrong thing or think it's not their place to speak, or it just wouldn't fit the room.

(01:13):

Today on stories and strategies, progress does not come from keeping the room comfortable. It comes from changing the room, one honest voice at a time. My name is Doug Downs.

Farzana Baduel (01:36):

And my name is Farzana Baduel and our guest this week is Natasha Plowman joining us from just outside London. Hi, Natasha.

Natasha Plowman (01:44):

Hello. Lovely to be here.

Farzana Baduel (01:46):

And how are things?

Natasha Plowman (01:48):

Things are great. It's Friday afternoon as we're recording, which is always a nice time of the week as you kind of think this might be the last thing I do for the day.

Farzana Baduel (01:56):

Absolutely. Now, Natasha, you are a strategic communications advisor and trainer who helps leaders cut through the noise with honest and human-led storytelling. You are a managing director of Antiquoted, a platform built to help people find fresh expert voices and the host of the podcast Cutting Through, where you explore the role that communications plays in exploring and solving business problems. You're also a leading voice behind the Break the Silence Collective that we all love, and you're pushing the PR and communications industry to confront gender equity more honestly and turn conversation into action. We love this.

Doug Downs (02:33):

And that's the key, right? Turning what we talk about into something we do, because I feel like I've asked this question a thousand times. It's communications. I go with the stat two-thirds populated or powered by women, and yet one-third at that C-suite level. What is the problem? And who needs to speak up about this?

Natasha Plowman (02:57):

I mean, the problem is the structures that we've put in place, which seem to disempower women from looking at the leadership that they've got and how they want to progress. The industry model ... I think if we take a step back, I mean, there is no one person to solve this, but we need to solve it collectively. This isn't a problem to fix women. And too often when we've talked about the issues around gender inequity when in an industry, it's women talking about women looking to solve women. And it's not a women problem. It's a systems. It's an industry problem. And the industry's being disrupted at the moment. I think we all agree that that is happening. So we have a choice here. We can continue the way things are going and bury our head in the sand a little bit, or we could be really innovative around how the industry can adjust and adapt itself for a future that is more equitable.

(03:48):

It's not about the status quo. It's not about simple policy. It's about a kind of complete look at how the industry is structured to make it more equitable for both women and men, and particularly future generations coming up in the industry.

Farzana Baduel (04:04):

Now, Natasha, I followed the whole break the silence. I went to the launch. It was incredible, very vibrant, but very, very action orientated. It became really clear to the rest of us in the industry that this is a talking shop. This is an action oriented enterprise. Now, one of the things that I thought was really interesting is that you really leaned into the active listening piece and started bringing in these listening labs, which I love that idea. And of course for you, Natasha, it's not just about listening to women, it's listening to women and men. So what's your experience? Are men as interested and engaged? When men do want to help, what does meaningful allyship look like? There's a lot of people tuning into this who are men, and they want to help. They've got their mothers, their daughters, their wives, but also they just know that it's a fundamentally good thing to do for society and for business.

(05:00):

There's a business case for gender equality clearly. So Natasha, what have you uncovered from a men's perspective about wanting to help?

Natasha Plowman (05:12):

Look, we found in the research that ... And look, I'll say from the outset, it was really hard to get men to fill in the research.

Farzana Baduel (05:20):

But why do you think that is? Is it because they weren't interested or do they think it was not their space?

Natasha Plowman (05:24):

I think it's a bit of both. And I think there's also a perception that there isn't a real problem and there isn't a real issue because they may not be seeing or experiencing it within the world that they see. A lot of the conversations that came out of the launch, and particularly that launch event, was that men are starting and understanding this whole issue from a different perspective and women get very frustrated with that. Understandably. We've been talking about it. We go to events and it's predominantly women at those events. We go and hear different people speak, we read books, we get engaged, we get involved and we actively do it. And it's always women only there or a smashing of men. Now, the smattering of men that come sometimes either feel that they shouldn't be there. And even I've got someone coming in event speaking next week and the first thing he said to me was, "Oh, I feel like a bit of a fraud talking about gender." And I'm like, "That is exactly what you're supposed to be talking about.

(06:16):

That is why we have Break the Silence. We want men to actively put their head above the parapet and talk about it. " And the research showed that when men do talk about it and when men do participant the conversation, firstly, more men get involved in the conversation. And secondly, it enables them to listen to some of the issues that are happening. But it is frustrating that ... It is frustrating. I think women need to acknowledge the fact that sometimes we kind of exclude men because they're starting it from a different position and they're starting from a different base of understanding. And that is actually why listening labs were created was because we weren't listening to each other and we weren't hearing each other really well in an open, non-judgmental space. And we need to be doing more of that because we can't just go straight to action.

(07:02):

I know everyone wants action. I know everyone wants change, but we can't do that until we actually really clear around the problem is. And we know a little bit, but we don't know enough because men aren't actively engaged in kind of sharing their perceptions and views. And that's what we want to see a lot more of.

Farzana Baduel (07:18):

Natasha, we've got a man here trapped in between us. So what would you say to Doug?

Natasha Plowman (07:24):

What I'd say to Doug is first, take the time to listen to the women around you and really ask them the right questions. So much of this is also opening up the conversation so women know that it is the right conversation they need to be having with you because it can't be performative and it can't just be, "Oh, I thought everything was all right." And also, check yourself around your defensiveness around this. And I think there's something around ... And that's fine. And I think men sometimes feel when they open a conversation around gender inequity, women get frustrated, men get defensive, and then we stop listening to each other and we've got to create the space to have that conversation properly. And in fact, I had a really good ally of ours messaged me privately and say, "Look, I feel like I'm not supposed to be and break the silence.

(08:12):

I feel like I'm being blamed as a man for all the ills of men." And there has been some conversation about that. And I said to him, I said, "Well, this isn't about what other people are doing. It's about why are you feeling triggered by that? You know yourself about what you're doing or not doing." So you need to reflect around why are you feeling triggered that you're kind of being blamed for everything, even though it's not the intention and it's just the conversation and people are starting with that frustration they've got. So how do men open up that little bit more to hear other people's stories more effectively? But then also, practically, what are you doing to amplify women on the channels and the areas you're doing? What are you doing to sponsor women? Too often women are talked about they've got to be kind of mentored and therefore women changed.

(09:02):

And actually it's what are you visibly doing to sponsor and amplify and celebrate all the different things that women do? And I've called that out quite a lot with people, and this is where anti-quoted is quite important, is I often see men just they kind of promote different work and the vast majority of the people they promote is kind of people who look like them and they don't actively look at how do they look at what women are doing and delivering and listen to women's. And all the research says this, that men do not read fiction or look at films by women. Why? Why is that? Look at your books that you've got. Are they predominantly by men?

Doug Downs (09:45):

I like this episode because I think we are in an age where we're moving from it's not good enough to be non-biased. The time is now to be anti-biased, which means we need to speak out. The flip side to that is, and I'm not speaking on behalf of all men, but as a male, I never know when I'm mansplaining. I never know when I've tripped over something. I never know. It's just safer, Natasha, for me to to nod politely and then go my merry way.

Natasha Plowman (10:16):

And I think this is also part of the problem. It's that whole idea that your fear of doing something wrong is holding you back from having the conversation that you need to be having and it's your fear. It's not on us what we're doing. It's how you're feeling and responding to things. Ask the question. I bet if you just said to a woman or said to the person you're talking to, "Look, am I doing this? " And opened up the question and actually was kind of open to hearing the answer, you would have a much better dialogue rather than ruminating in your head the fear of what you may or may not be doing or they or may or might not be thinking that you have absolutely no idea about. And I think this is the conversation we need to be having. And you talk about anti-bias.

(11:02):

Bias starts from yourself. It starts from knowing yourself. It starts from knowing your triggers. It starts from questioning why you think the way you do and don't lead with assumptions. But that doesn't mean bias in itself is bad. It's just the way the brain operates to make things a little bit easier and shortcuts. But by talking about it more openly and honestly, and actually being a little bit more vulnerable in the fear of failure and the fear of doing something wrong, then we'd actually probably have a much better conversation amongst ourselves. And again, that is the premise of what Listening Labs is there, is to hold that space, to have that conversation, to have those tough conversations that we're just not having enough of because of fear.

Farzana Baduel (11:45):

Natasha, you've got two platforms. You've got antiquated and then you have Break the Silence. So this is a really important space for you to bring in that level of diversity, be it gender or other forms of diversity. Do you think that the pendulum has sort of swung back because you've had a bit of a backlash to DEI and has that sort of impacted or undermined the activism that you are bringing to the industry? Has it become tougher? Have you got a headwind against you that you have to push that you didn't have to do last year?

Natasha Plowman (12:20):

I mean, I think the headwinds are really against, and I'm going to be an optimist on this, is where again, what's happening is against the performative displays of DE&I. It's the performative tick box exercises that don't actually go to do the hard work of the structural changes that we need to make to the systems that we've got. But that being said, the dialogue, the conversations, when you go at a surface level and you just get into this curated feed of particularly social media that people then assume is the truth or representative of the world, it's not. And I think that's the other thing that's really interesting about when you take your viewpoints and you take the standard view of what people are thinking from social media, then you're not getting the truth. And I think all social media listening, if anyone uses that to guide policy or brand decisions, they shouldn't.

(13:14):

They have to go back old school and actually talk to human beings, then that's where we need to be focusing on. It's the dialogue, it's the conversation, it's the systems that we need to be changing. The role of policy is really interesting because what we found from a lot of agencies in particular we were speaking to was that they had all the nice policies,

Lady Emily (13:37):

But

Natasha Plowman (13:37):

People weren't taking them up and then they weren't asking the right questions of why And we've got the policy, that can tick our box. You can say for an awards entry, we've got all these policies. But when you actually dig deeper on how many people are taking up effectively the flexible working policy, how are people using Mat and Pat leave effectively? How are people using all the other kind of things that they've got available to them? But if the culture doesn't suit that policy, then it's not going to change. And culture is the thing that we need to be looking at and changing more effectively.

Doug Downs (14:11):

Okay. I'm asking this because I know your answer. That's how I have the courage to ask it. Is it just about getting more women into leadership roles? Does that fix it, make it all better, Natasha?

Natasha Plowman (14:21):

Look, I really wish it would in lots of ways. And I often will say, when women rule the world, and look, the King's research that came out did say that people across all ages and genders wanted to see more women in leadership, but it's not just about women and leadership. It's about having a leadership that is fit for the future. And look, let's be absolutely frank here, and I can say this because, and I'm an independent person, there is enough toxic leadership that across genders in our industry that we need to be start calling out more effectively. We hear about it, we talk about it, we all know it, we know what's happening. And I think the fundamental changes in the industry need to happen and the structures that need to be changed are genderless because the culture isn't working for young people and it's certainly not working for people and it's not working for women.

(15:07):

We're saying that. And I was thinking about this before and it's like, well, what is it in the industry that needs to change? And look, we're an industry that needs to make money and it all comes back down to money. And I think we all agree on that. We're a business, but how we make money needs to also be considered if we're also a people led and knowledge led business. And at the moment, so much of the work has been run by spreadsheets, which is enabling a toxic behavior that is just taking out the human connection that we need from the industry that we've got. So it isn't as simple as just women, it's more about really good leaders who know how to lead a knowledge led, human led business. And that's what we need to be focusing on.

Farzana Baduel (15:50):

Natasha, as a woman, what can I do to really better the cause of gender equality? Because sometimes, for instance, in times of my life, I have had a confidence gap and people often say that women, if we only have, if we have 90% of, I don't know, what's in a job description, we focus on the 10% that we don't have, and then that inhibits us for going for the job. And they say that men, they don't have that same mentality. So how much of it is us as women holding ourselves back because we have a confidence gap and how can we overcome that?

Natasha Plowman (16:35):

I often find that quite frustrating because I've often been accused of the converse and it's like this whole idea that women are meant to be a certain way and you may have a confidence gap and that's a conversation with you, but it's not your gender, that's about you. And men also have confidence gaps and we talk a lot and we don't talk about that enough. And men have often talked about their fear and their failures and they don't talk about it more publicly, but it's almost acceptable and it's almost understandable if women do. But I don't think that's necessarily a gender issue. I think we all have those dips and changes in confidence that we've got. Whereas I've been accused of the opposite of not being overly confident or being perceived to be, regardless of how you're perceived or what you're doing. And then I'm not enough like what the stereotype of what a woman should be.

(17:23):

And you see that all the time around kind of women are too ... What's that meme that, what's the difference between not aggressive and assertive?

Farzana Baduel (17:33):

Yes. Yeah.

Natasha Plowman (17:34):

It's

Farzana Baduel (17:35):

Your

Natasha Plowman (17:35):

Gender.

Farzana Baduel (17:37):

I love that. I love that.

Natasha Plowman (17:39):

And I love that. And there's a whole lot of those other memes that are around, but I think that also comes back down to the stereotypes of what we expect women to be. And the real concerning thing we've got, and this is more research that came out of Kings, was that those perceptions of what women should be like and what men should be like, the views in Gen Z are so separated now, which has never been seen in history. And so we need to start looking at the role models that we've got, the visibility in the organizations we have and how we're talking about these issues. So all the young people coming up can see an industry that is fit for them in the future and can actually encourage them to be involved in the industry. But I just think individually, we need to have better conversations around ourselves, our own self-awareness, be able to have those and encourage men to have those conversations as well so it doesn't become this gendered issue when it's actually not.

(18:37):

It's a kind of, we're human.

Farzana Baduel (18:40):

And Natasha, just you talk about the importance of self-awareness in order to then be able to reduce your internal sort of bias. What are the practical steps that our listeners can take to raise their self-awareness and reduce their bias on just a day-to-day advice?

Natasha Plowman (18:57):

Look, I mean, a lot of the work that I do with my own company, Spinning Red is around communications impact training. So I work with a lot of senior leaders and a lot of them are actually men, which is really interesting. And I really enjoy working with a lot of senior men because enables me to have much more open conversation, particularly with them around their communications impact. But it does come back to knowing yourself, your triggers, your values, what makes you you, because the best communicators, the ones who are able to do that. And it's the hard work. It's not a quick fix. It's going back to how you grew up, where you grew up, understand what makes you excited and not excited, and understanding what triggers you, and then be able to kind of make choices around how you communicate more effectively. And I don't think that's the easy ... I don't think it's not easy.

(19:51):

And I think a lot of people come to that with age, and I'd love people to be having more of those conversations earlier on in their career, so they become a lot more comfortable with themselves. And I think once you become comfortable with yourself, that's when you can have the right impact that you need to have.

Doug Downs (20:05):

Natasha, thanks so much.

Farzana Baduel (20:07):

Thank you. So here are the top three things we got today from Natasha Plowman. Numero Uno, fix the system. Gender inequity is not a women problem. It is an industry structure problem.

Doug Downs (20:21):

Amen.

Farzana Baduel (20:22):

Number two. Listen, then act. Real progress starts with honest listening, not fair, defensiveness, or performative policy. Number three, lead like a human. The future needs self-aware leaders who change culture, not just titles at the top.

Doug Downs (20:42):

And if you're a man and you listen to this episode and you're thinking, okay, that wasn't for me, you didn't get it because it's all of us talking together. It's not a women's issue, it's an industry issue. More voices, more leadership. That's the point. If you'd like to send a message to our guest, Natasha Plowman, we've got her contact info in the show notes. Stories and strategies, co-production of Curzon Public Relations and Stories and Strategies Podcasts. If you like this episode, a thumbs up, a rating, a five star, maybe a review. Producers, Emily Page and David Olajide, two thumbs up. Hey, a quick story if I can Farzana. True story. Back in high school, before a long afternoon in class, I had nothing to eat and a friend of mine pulled out a granola bar. She broke it in half and handed me one of those halves.

(21:32):

And I still remember how grateful I felt because it was going to be a long day of class. She had a long day too, and it reminded me that sharing is one of the fastest ways to turn mine into ours. Do us a favour, share this episode with one friend. Thanks for listening.