Lady Emily (00:00):
We don't experience people, places, or countries first. We experience their reputation and most of the time we form opinions from that reputation long before we ever meet the real thing. Your opinion might be based on a story you never chose.
Doug Downs (00:23):
A long time ago before Wi-Fi, before social media, before search bars, before "just Google it," Plato told a story. He said there were people living deep inside a cave. They'd been there so long they didn't even know it was a cave. All they could see was a wall in front of them and behind them there was a fire and between the fire and the people, shadows moved back and forth, shapes, flickers of movement. And over time, those shadows became the only world they knew. Not because they were foolish, but because it was all they'd ever been shown. Now, here's the part that matters.
(01:07):
Imagine one of them breaks free, walks outside and sees the real world for the first time. Sunlight, color, depth, real faces. And then they come back to tell the others. The others don't cheer. They argue because the shadows, they feel familiar and the truth feels inconvenient. Well, that's how perception works because today most people don't meet a place or a culture or a country. They meet the version that shows up on a screen. They meet the internet signals. They meet the stories they inherited when they were kids. They meet the old narratives that got passed down like family heirlooms. Then they reinforce them in coffee shops one conversation at a time. And now we've added something new. A search result, a headline, a summary generated by AI, not the whole story, just the first story. And if you want a picture of how powerful that is, consider Egypt, a civilization that built monuments so massive they were meant to outlast time itself.
(02:17):
In fact, by the time Plato wrote his cave story, the pyramids had already been standing for more than 2,000 years. And yet for people, Egypt still collapses into a single image, a single idea, a single shadow on the wall. So what happens when a country as famous as Egypt gets reduced to one shadow on the wall? Today on Stories and Strategies, when all you see are shadows, even the pyramids are just silhouettes on a cave wall.
(03:02):
My name is Doug Downs. My guest this week is Lamia Kamel joining from Cairo in Egypt. Hey, Lamia.
Lamia Kamel (03:10):
Hey, Doug. How are you? Thank you so much for having me.
Doug Downs (03:13):
Well, thank you. It's late morning for me. Is it late evening for you? Are we complete other sides of the world?
Lamia Kamel (03:21):
Well, it's 8:00 PM in Cairo, a city that never sleeps. So we're good. In our books, it's the early evening, so we're fine.
Doug Downs (03:32):
Early evening. Awesome. Lamia, you're the founder and managing director of CC Plus, one of Egypt's best-known strategic communications consultancies. You're also the founder of the Narrative PR Summit, something I got to get to at some point. A platform focused on nation branding and storytelling and you're a former assistant minister of tourism and antiquities for promotion, bringing government leadership experience into your work on reputation and perception. So before someone ever thinks about or engages with Egypt, whether that's, I mean, we're going to take a trip or we're going to do business in Egypt. We're pre-shaped, right? We all stereotype, we all have these preconceived notions and particularly in the West, it's sand, it's pyramids and maybe a little bit of Raiders of the Lost Ark. And that's just such old, old thinking, isn't it?
Lamia Kamel (04:28):
Yeah. And worse. It's thuggery and harassment and insecurity and lack of safety, especially when it comes to North Americans. And I know that North American travelers are very cautious because they really care for their safety. So they go online, they check what's going on there and their views are not good. So it's all about this misconception about not treating women properly, the thuggery, unfair pricing. We know that and we've seen it all online. So yeah, there's a lot of wrong narrative outside. Or let's say some of it is true, but it's pretty much biased. It doesn't have the wholesome inclusive picture of the reality. And that's why people like me, like you, need to get online and talk about it and see the experience behind it and try to bring some truth to what's going on.
Doug Downs (05:24):
Okay. Tell me the truth about Egypt from a tourism and a business standpoint. And then let's branch off into, look, how does Egypt accomplish this as the first frame of thought for people globally?
Lamia Kamel (05:37):
Egypt, a 120 million population country, extremely diverse. You cannot have one persona for Egypt. There is the city Egypt. There is Upper Egypt, which is full of antiquities, the Upper Egyptian part, which is the north of the Nile. We call it south, but it's actually the north of the Nile. So you have Luxor and Aswan with all their antiquities and their historic Egypt during the Pharaonic times. You have Giza by the pyramids. You have the sea, so you have the Red Sea, which is very different from the Mediterranean Sea, which is the North Coast. So travel-wise, it's the kind of country that's pretty diverse. There is so much you can do. There is so much to see and it's not enough to go in one visit. And it's part of the beauty, but it's also part of the challenge when you promote because you cannot promote Egypt.
(06:27):
It's a lot. You have to promote a part, which is Egypt by the Sea or Egypt the Red Sea, or Egypt's North Coast, or the city, which is Cairo, which you could spend three to four days in by the Nile or go up north in Giza or see the new towns. Egypt is very, very, very challenging. The oldest civilization and yet the most crazy, the most dynamic, the most diverse, a population 50% less than 30 years old. So it's a lot of fun.
Doug Downs (07:01):
It's young. Yeah.
Lamia Kamel (07:02):
Very young. It's a very young population. So from the minute you get into the airports, you find all those young people trying to talk to you, excited about knowing you, excited to know your name and we love foreigners, always have, always will. So we love to talk to people and we love to engage with people and we love to tell stories and it's part of the charm.
Doug Downs (07:25):
Okay. Who would Egypt target? I think it's Europe as a whole. So Spain, Italy, France and...
Lamia Kamel (07:36):
Probably. Proximity, obviously. Yeah.
Doug Downs (07:38):
Right. That's what I'm thinking because the West, I kind of have to land in London or Paris to get to Egypt or Germany.
Lamia Kamel (07:46):
Yes.
Doug Downs (07:46):
So I imagine the initial targeting is Europe because they've got the money and it ain't too far to travel. Who and how would you market it? If it's a young country, then you can make use of these newer channels, good targeted social media, podcasts, things on shows on YouTube that you could probably do.
Lamia Kamel (08:10):
When I was at the Ministry of Tourism and Antiquities, we were really focused on the tactical digital campaigns because you can reach your audience quickly, you can evaluate based on travel, you can evaluate not return on investment, but return on travel. So how many people came from a specific country, how many people engaged with your advertising campaign, with your posts? Very, very trackable. So digital is definitely a platform that as a government, they utilize really well, but also as an ecosystem, be it travel agencies, hotels, this is something that they've been really, really focused on. We're still behind when it comes to independent travel. So it's pretty much an operator market. So the operators do a lot of the job. I would focus on having an event agenda whereby the operators would know what's going on in Egypt, if there's a design week, if there's an art week, if there's a certain conference that people are interested in.
(09:17):
There's a lot of DJs and music festivals coming to Cairo and to the North Coast. There's West Sommet at the Pyramids, there was so much going on at the North Coast as well. And many of those DJs need to be on our event agenda for people to be able to book their ticket. There's nothing better than having an event that exposes a country, right? It exposes a service. It exposes people. It exposes its ability to provide hospitality, food, and it drives the business pretty much.
Doug Downs (09:51):
What about business? What kind of business does Egypt want to attract? What's the logical connection and how do you connect with them?
Lamia Kamel (10:01):
Well, because of the young population, entrepreneurs have very much been an active and a catalyst factor in the economy. So we have a very young audience. We have a very young population who are extremely creative, extremely dynamic and technology has been a very active part. I mean, there's a penetration rate of 60% or more among the youth sector, penetration of technology, internet, mobile phones, digital. And with that ratio, this is a very good market to attract technology, to import technology, obviously AI as well, AI with all its applications, but also it's a market that creates technology and applications. So there's so much that can be done here and there's so much investment that can be driven into that market, especially with labor being very competitive in terms of costs because of the currency. So it's a very charming place to invest in the youth, in their technology applications and also to engage them in things and culture that they can export.
Doug Downs (11:16):
Right. What are the popular channels? Who's using what social media channels? I know in the West, I don't know if a lot of people talk about this, but social media engagement, not use, but engagement has been on the decline for the last seven years. What are the channels folks are using? Is YouTube as popular in Egypt as it would seem to be in the West? How are podcasts doing in Egypt?
Lamia Kamel (11:43):
All I can tell you is that with the youth, digital is still a big part of the conversation. So there is Snapchat, TikTok, Instagram, pretty much still very active on Instagram. YouTube comes fourth. When it comes to penetration, I would say TikTok is the highest, then Snapchat, especially among the people in their 20s and early 30s. And if you go up in terms of age and age bracket, you'd probably find more on Instagram and on YouTube. With AI, I think ChatGPT is taking over. There's also Claude, there's also all those applications with AI. So a lot of the youth are using that as well as a reference point and as a knowledge hub. So you get a lot of that as well. Yeah, these are the popular channels. Unfortunately, TV is not there much anymore. Podcasts, okay. Podcasts are interesting, but there's so many podcasts in Egypt.
(12:48):
The thing is with podcasts is because the market is...
Doug Downs (12:50):
Are they English or Arabic language?
Lamia Kamel (12:52):
Mostly Arabic. Arabic language. Okay. That's an issue for us. Because if you want to speak the global language, we want more English-speaking podcasts and that's an issue in Egypt really. Despite the fact that we've been really exposed because of our civilization, right now in the past 10 to 15 years, we have been pretty much localized, not just in our language, but also in our practices. And although there's so much curiosity from the global market and that's where the PR role comes through, as a population, we're still confined into our own. Maybe because the market is really big so it absorbs our curiosity, but it becomes wrong because you want those investors to be interested. You want those travelers to be interested. So you need to speak their language and you need to be able to communicate and you need to have more of those channels.
(13:44):
And that's why actually, Doug, when I find the opportunity to speak on those platforms, I really do like yours because it's an opportunity for us to be part of that conversation. We have been isolated for a very long time and because of our ups and downs, because of our economic situation, we have been pretty much in our challenges so much that we forgot that there's a great world out there curious about us and we need to be curious about them as well.
Lamia Kamel (13:44):
And that's why actually, Doug, when I find the opportunity to speak on those platforms, I really do like yours because it's an opportunity for us to be part of that conversation. We have been isolated for a very long time and because of our ups and downs, because of our economic situation, we have been pretty much in our challenges so much that we forgot that there's a great world out there curious about us and we need to be curious about them as well.
Doug Downs (14:14):
Perfect. Tell me about the PR Summit. It's both an ongoing channel for you as well as an event that you hold. Explain for me what it is and who goes to the summit.
Lamia Kamel (14:28):
Well, it started with my understanding of PR and if you ask anybody, what is PR? In my books, it's reputation management. And it started with building the reputation for companies, for people, but also for a country like Egypt, you need PR. I mean, you need to build that reputation. So the summit serves two purposes, actually. One purpose is to elevate PR as a profession, but also elevate Egypt as a country of interest. And what better way to elevate a country, if not through the people? I mean, we have the heritage, we have the sites, we have the monuments, we have the history. That's great. We have the events, but the people in Egypt are what's most attractive and what's most charming because there is this character and there's this engagement. And for me, the Narrative Summit elevates that, amplifies that. So if I tell you who's the most famous Egyptian you know, well, who would it be?
Doug Downs (15:42):
Oh, it's terrible. I'd say Pharaoh or King Tut. Isn't that awful? Do you mean living? Living I would... well, okay, Anwar Sadat.
Lamia Kamel (15:53):
Yeah, fantastic.
Doug Downs (15:54):
Oh God.
Lamia Kamel (15:54):
I'm a perfect example.
Doug Downs (15:57):
Yeah.
Lamia Kamel (15:59):
But you know what? I'm glad you said Anwar Sadat. People would say Mohamed Salah in football. We have Anwar Sadat.
Doug Downs (16:08):
Oh gosh, yes. No.
Lamia Kamel (16:09):
We have Anwar Sadat and Mohamed Salah in every single field. People think, "Oh, Ramses II. Oh, Mohamed Salah, the great football player." But actually we have a Mohamed Salah in every single discipline, in every single field. We have so many good Egyptian leaders who are able to create the right roadmap for Egypt as a country. And the Narrative Summit brings those people and brings the right international speakers who have an interest in the country to elevate it and to have that conversation. So instead of begging CNN to come, begging BBC to cover, we bring someone from the field of PR, someone from CIPR, someone like Frenaša Badrwe, who has a great reach, who has very good solid credibility and engagement. She would come, experience, converse, communicate and come back with a review and that's what we care for.
Doug Downs (17:16):
I should bring someone who could talk about podcasts, but that's just me.
Lamia Kamel (17:19):
We should and we will.
Doug Downs (17:22):
We can talk. Give me an example. I get that PR practice has similarities globally. I'm not saying it's completely different in any spot, but how is Egyptian PR slightly or maybe majorly different from what I might practice or what I might know? How is there a difference, the good or the bad?
Lamia Kamel (17:49):
In Western markets, PR is very much content-driven. So if you want to be out there, you need to really focus on the content. This market is pretty much a relationship-based market.
Doug Downs (18:04):
Shake the hands. Yeah.
Lamia Kamel (18:07):
And that's good and bad because, well, first it teaches you to be in the comfort zone because it's pretty much who you know, who you trust. It's very much a market that is based on who you know, who you trust, but that keeps you lazy because it doesn't force you, it doesn't push you to come up with your story. So when you come to Western media and when you speak to this kind of media, it's not about who you know. I mean, you could be best friends, but I'm never running your story unless it's worth it, right? And I'm never going to promote you. I'm going to focus on what the readers or the viewers, what they're interested in. I mean, you and I, when we spoke, I had an agenda, right? But if this agenda did not fit your audience, you would've never heard it.
(18:57):
You would've never taken the time.
Doug Downs (18:59):
That's right. It has to be a win-win.
Lamia Kamel (19:01):
Absolutely. In our market, it's still based on if we know each other well and if I trust you, I'm going to pursue it. And that created some sort of, I don't want to say mediocrity, but a consistent state of not emerging and not progressing. But again, once again, to be part of the global conversation, you really have to speak the global language.
Doug Downs (19:29):
Awesome. Lamia, we took some months to finally put this episode together, but I'm glad we did. It was well worth it. Thank you.
Lamia Kamel (19:37):
Thank you so much, Doug. And I'm really admiring what you're doing here. You've come through so well to the point that in Egypt, now you're known and my team has been following you.
Doug Downs (19:50):
At least by one.
Lamia Kamel (19:51):
Yes, yes. And I think you've been doing great. And the Middle East is not a place where you're able to penetrate easily and I'm glad you were able to do that further for the podcast. Yeah.
Doug Downs (20:03):
Yeah. We have a little bit. We actually have a little following in Tehran, which interests me and I'd love to know more about that. Absolutely. If you're listening and you're in Tehran, reach out because I'd love to connect and know more. Absolutely. Lamia, I hope to chat with you soon.
Lamia Kamel (20:19):
Absolutely. Same here, likewise.
Doug Downs (20:22):
So good. Just makes me want to go. I would see the pyramids though if I ever went. Here are the top three things I got today from Lamia Kamel.
Number one, fix the narrative gap. Global perception is biased and incomplete, so Egypt must actively tell a fuller, more accurate story.
Number two, create a consistent experience. Marketing fails if the on-the-ground experience is unpredictable and varies by whom you encounter.
And number three, promote in segments, not as an entire country. Really interesting. Egypt is too diverse to market as a single product or place or experience, so it must be broken into clear, targeted offerings.
If you'd like to send a message to my guest, Lamia Kamel, we've got her contact information in the show notes. Stories and Strategies is a production of Stories and Strategies Podcasts. Thank you to producers, Emily Page and Jocelyn Floralde.
(21:16):
When you think about it, each of us has an opinion about places we've never been and people we've never met, not because we're careless, but because we inherit stories, we scroll stories and we repeat stories. So if this episode gave you a fuller picture than the one you started with, forward it to one friend.
Thanks for listening.
