Lady Emily (00:00):
The best mentors in your career won't always look like mentors. Today, we're going to talk about why that's actually the whole point.
Doug Downs (00:11):
In 2006, a movie came out that every woman in a professional job is seen at least twice, quoted at least once. Devil wears Prada. Andy Sachs takes a job she doesn't want. Working for a woman, she doesn't understand, doing work she thinks is beneath her. Miranda Priestly never sits her down, never explains the rules, never asks how she's doing or whether she needs support. She just expects. When Andy fails, she lets her fail. And when Andy figures it out, she barely notices. By every measure, Miranda Priestly is a terrible mentor. She's cold. She's demanding. She's impossible to read, impossible to please. There's no program, no structure, no defined timeline, no clear goal, no moment where Miranda says, "Here is what I'm going to teach you." And yet by the end of the movie, Andy Sachs is transformed, not because Miranda tried to mentor her, because Andy paid attention, because she stayed in the room and decided to understand it.
(01:13):
The mentorship was happening the whole time. Andy just didn't recognize it because it looked nothing like what she expected mentorship to look like. That's the problem with how most of us think about mentorship. We're waiting for something that looks like a program, something formal, something defined, something that arrives with instructions. In meantime, the most important relationships of our careers are already in the room. Today on Stories and Strategies, gird your loins. Everything you think you know about mentorship is probably wrong, and that's probably good.
(02:02):
My name is Doug Downs. My guest this week are Amy Thurlow in Nova Scotia, Colleen Killingsworth joining today again from Calgary. Cheers to you both. You're on a couple of weeks ago. Good to have you back.
Amy Thurlow (02:12):
Thank
Colleen Killingsworth (02:13):
You. Oh, nice to be back. Thank you, Doug.
Amy Thurlow (02:15):
Thanks, Doug.
Doug Downs (02:16):
Amy, you are a professor of communication studies at Mount St. Vincent University in Halifax, a fellow of the Canadian Public Relations Society, and the person CPRS recognized in 2021 with their outstanding achievement award for bringing the Global Capabilities Framework to Canada. Colleen, you are one of the most decorated practitioners in Canadian public relations, a former national president of CPRS, a fellow of the college, and the recipient of both the Lamp of Service and the Philip Novakoff Memorial Award. Together, you won the 2025 CPRS Thought Leadership Award for the research that formed the content of your book, Rethinking the Table: Women Leaders in Public Relations. And I actually don't know the specific page number, but by the way, if you want more about what's the contents of the book, listen to the episode we did a couple of weeks ago. It's just a couple episodes back.
(03:13):
Within the book though, there's a chapter or more on what you call the five myths about mentorship. And that was that pop that stood right out to me. These myths that are quietly holding the PR profession back. Walk me through those five myths because I think the person listening is going to hear themselves in at least a couple of these.
Colleen Killingsworth (03:35):
Yeah. No, great. You're absolutely right. And I think these five myths really do hold people back sometimes from getting really good sound mentorship. The myths are mentorship is for students or junior practitioners. Mentorship is a structured process through a formal program. Mentorship is short-term defined relationship. Choosing a mentor is pretty straightforward, and mentorship is most useful when you have a problem.
Doug Downs (04:08):
Okay. The unstructured part, tell me about that because I love unstructured. I think we learn by playing kind
Colleen Killingsworth (04:16):
Of. Yeah. So mentorship is not really, in my opinion or our opinion, a structured process through a formal program. It is most effective when it is unstructured. When you find the right mentor relationship based on the skillset you want to grow or the opportunity you're looking for, and really building that relationship instead of approaching it as a check the box activity where, okay, we need to meet for two hours every week and talk about something. That's not organic. That's not where learning, that's not where relationships are built. So I think that is one of the myths that really needs to be busted and looked at quite differently. And that leads as well to mentorship isn't about a young practitioner looking for a more senior practitioner. It could be a senior practitioner looking for another senior practitioner to really grow their skillset or advance their career opportunities.
(05:29):
So it is relationship. I think that's the key.
Doug Downs (05:35):
Yeah. And kind of a two-way street, right? I know you're both advocates for so-called reverse mentor. There's no such thing as reverse mentorship. There's just mentorship, but it flows back and forth.
Colleen Killingsworth (05:46):
It does, absolutely. And that is something that I'm so passionate about because all of the mentees I've had, I've learned so much because they've come up at a different time and starting their careers at a different time and have different perspectives and experiences that I think as senior practitioners we need to be really open to and understand and help fill some of our gaps in knowledge and understanding.
Amy Thurlow (06:19):
Mentorship, as Colleen has said, it's relational. It's relationship-based, not transactional. So it's not a matter of getting mentorship. It's a matter of building this mentorship relationship. And what we heard from the people that we spoke to in our research is that some of the most powerful mentorship experiences they've had have been when a crisis comes up and they need to reach out to a trusted colleague or a friend, they go to their mentor. Maybe they don't even use that term when they think of that person, but that's the role that the person fills. And it's not something where, as Colleen was saying, it's a scheduled or programmed kind of event. It's this relationship building piece. And one of the key components of that is it's ongoing and it's a dynamic. And when you think of in terms of the senior mentor maybe with more experience, the myth of that person has to have the wisdom and be in the giving role, but just how much pressure that puts on people in that role when they can also be sharing and learning from their mentees if that relationship and balance can be found.
Doug Downs (07:36):
There's a theory that younger folks are increasingly turning to the LLMs, ChatGPT, Claude, and seeking mentorship. Or in some cases, I have a real good friend of mine, she's about my age, and her daughter just became a mom. She's in her mid - 20s. And the daughter relayed a story to her about having some post-birth challenges that are perfectly, perfectly normal, but how good it was to have a conversation with someone, ChatGPT, who understood her and empathized with her. Is there a risk that with AI and the tendency, let's face it for Gen Z and the Alphas, they spend a lot more time on their phones. I would say maybe not as intuitively social as you and I used to be at that age. I think there is a risk there.
Amy Thurlow (08:33):
Oh, I certainly agree. I agree. And just fundamentally, mentorship is a relationship and it's just not possible to have a human relationship with an AI component. It's just not possible. And there are many elements to that that can be quite concerning. For example, AI is designed to feed back to you what you want to hear. AI components aren't programmed to argue with you, and they might not be, well, they won't be, in a position to give you maybe some hard truths that you need to hear from your mentor or to be able to do that in a respectful and nuanced way that allows you to engage in that critical reflection as well. That whole piece, which is a core component of what a mentor or even in the role of coach or champion, that's part of the role. It's not about just being a cheerleader for you or just reflecting back what you say.
(09:35):
The other thing is when you're speaking with AI, you actually don't know where is that information coming from? It's being pulled from all different sources, but you don't have any context for that framework. When you have a relationship with your mentor, of course, you know the background of the person, you've been through situations at work before or in your peer group or whatever. You have the frame of reference where you can judge and evaluate what you're going to do with the information. You don't have that in the AI context as a mentee. So I think it's really not having that human piece, not having access to nuance. AI can't sit across the table from you and just get a sense from your body language or the way your eyes slides. They can't read that. A mentor can, and that can be really helpful in terms of how information is delivered and received.
Colleen Killingsworth (10:37):
Yeah. And AI can't share with you their experience, their career experiences, how they handled a crisis situation, how they handled growing their own career. I know that's always the question that mentees ask is what steps did you take? AI can't tell you that because people's careers go many different ways. AI probably make up something that's very linear and that's not how people grow their career.
Doug Downs (11:12):
No, and it would fake the emotional understanding. I'm sure it would try to empathize with the emotional foundations of my decision. I'm a big believer that decisions should be part logic, of course, but that emotion should not be ignored. It plays a factor in
Amy Thurlow (11:30):
That. Yeah.
Doug Downs (11:32):
The conference I was at recently, this is different, it's an advisory role, but advisor and mentor, boy, they're cousins at the very least. There was a very senior practitioner who shared a story or a problem that she has. She's at the C-suite table, thank goodness, as a communications professional, but that her CEO is constantly rejecting her advice and strategic counsel because that's not what ChatGPT said.
Amy Thurlow (12:03):
I mean, that's just shocking.
Colleen Killingsworth (12:06):
It is shocking.
Doug Downs (12:07):
Large corporation. Large
Amy Thurlow (12:09):
Corporation. I mean, their largest investment very likely is their human resources. And here is your human employee with experience, connections in the organization, expertise in the field giving you advice as the CEO, and you're weighing that against ChatGPT, which again, I mean, so many issues around that. But at the very least, the fact that the information, you don't know what it was trained on.
Colleen Killingsworth (12:41):
Yeah. And the biases that come into it. And I think that's also when we look at technology and it can be a barrier for women leaders as well because of the biases that are trained into it. And especially when you look beyond diversity, beyond gender, then you really struggle, I think, with the technology.
Amy Thurlow (13:13):
I mean, AI can be a very useful research assistant.
Colleen Killingsworth (13:18):
Absolutely.
Amy Thurlow (13:19):
It can help in information gathering, that sort of thing. But in terms of taking that next step to say, is this insight? I mean, I think that's questionable. Is this experience? Certainly not. It's created from this training. Yeah, I think that's a real challenge.
Doug Downs (13:42):
Let me put you both on the spot, and we didn't prep for this. Who has provided mentorship to you? And I'll go first. Mine is non-work related. And sorry, it was sports, but I had a coach once, didn't create the quote. It's a longstanding quote, but I was feeling sorry for myself and I was tired, and I guess I wanted to quit. I would never have said the word, but I wanted to quit. And I remember him just scratching a note and handing it to me that said, "A winner never quits, and a quitter never wins." Which isn't always true, by the way. You can go much deeper philosophically and understand that there is futility in this life, but that hit the note for me. And every time I feel tired, I realized that life is about if you're tired, do it tired. And I carried that with me for life.
(14:33):
Who was a mentor, or at least what was the advice that you got that stuck with you the rest of the way?
Amy Thurlow (14:39):
Well, one of my mentors in my life was a former teacher, a former professor of mine. And then when I started working in academia, which is, I mean, I am teaching public relations, so I understand the content, but teaching is a whole different craft too. So I really relied on mentorship. And I had the opportunity to work with this professor when I came to Mount Tickets. And I remember lots of long conversations after I might have a class and I had a great idea going in and the students just did not think it was as great an idea or they didn't engage the way I was hoping. And having someone to talk that through with who's been there and can give you the advice and say, "Maybe next time, tweak it this way," or, "Here's a time when I had that experience." And I think I don't have a sentence or a phrase that she gave me, but what she certainly instilled in me was have that trust in yourself and that confidence in yourself that you're going to keep learning, you're going to make mistakes, but you'll grow while you're doing it and it's rewarding.
(15:51):
And I am very grateful for that.
Colleen Killingsworth (15:54):
Yeah. And I've been really fortunate to have had many great mentors along the way over my career. Could name names, but I won't. But everywhere from professors at the university and the graduate level to, especially in the consulting round, organizational leaders who just really gave me opportunities, coached me along the way. And I think when you sit advisors, close cousin to mentor, I think coach is as well.
Doug Downs (16:36):
Okay. Someone who's listened this far, and if they aren't already a mentor or a protege or a mentee, they're probably thinking about it, either offering to mentor or choosing to seek a mentor. What are the practical first steps specific to public relations?
Colleen Killingsworth (16:54):
Yeah, I think it's really getting in. And for the mentee or the person seeking that mentor, it's what gap are you looking to fill? What is it you want to learn? What's your objective for the mentorship? So then you really look to seek out the right people or the right person. And while that sounds a little bit formal and construct, I think it's where you really need to start. And then it can be very organic how you develop that relationship. But going to somebody that maybe their background or their skillset isn't in strategic communications, it's more in advertising, but you want them to be that strategic communicator mentor because you like the person. It's not going to be as successful. So I think really understanding the objective, what you want to get out of it, what you want to put into it as well as equally as important.
(18:05):
And then you've got a starting point for a conversation with that person as to why you want to build that relationship.
Amy Thurlow (18:15):
And I'll just jump in to add there from the point of view of, so what is the job of a mentor from that perspective? And it can be pretty organic, as Colin was saying, in terms of what that looks like. And we also, we talked about the word coach or advisor. We also in the book talk about champion, being a champion for someone. And we heard from a number of our participants that their greatest mentors were people who opened doors for them. And I remember one participant used the phrase, saying my name when I'm not in the room, putting me forward. That's a champion. That's what a good mentor does. And I think mentors do that just intuitively, but I think it's worth highlighting that helping somebody advance. And we were talking to women about women. They said to us, it's very helpful to have a woman mentor, but not always.
(19:16):
It's not only women mentors. Many of our participants had excellent mentorship from male colleagues in their organizations, and they also opened doors and said their name when they weren't in the room. So that piece of it I think is key. And also it fuels that relationship of championing somebody through their career.
Doug Downs (19:41):
Perfect. Thank you both for your time today. Really appreciate it.
Amy Thurlow (19:45):
Thank you. Very interesting.
Colleen Killingsworth (19:47):
Yeah. Thank you, Doug.
Doug Downs (19:49):
If you're having a conversation with somebody later on today or maybe even tomorrow and you think of something, here are three things you might raise in that convo. Number one, mentorship is a relationship. The best mentorship is organic, ongoing, and built on trust rather than a formal program. Number two, learning goes both ways. Great mentors learn from their mentees too, regardless of age or seniority. And number three, mentors open doors. The strongest mentors don't just give you advice. They champion you when you're not in the room. If you'd like to send a message to my guests, Amy Thurlow and Colleen Killingsworth, we've got their contact information in the show notes. Stories and strategies, production of Stories and Strategies podcasts. The rockstar producers are Emily Page and Jocelyn Floralde. And last note, we've started a newsletter for this podcast as really all podcasts should. We're way behind.
(20:47):
It is a tiny little sprout right now. I mean, it hasn't even broken through the ground yet. It could use your sunshine and support. If you have a spare second, would you go to the show notes and give that newsletter a follow? Really appreciate it. Thanks for listening. I
